Friday, October 15. 2010
This Week in Anaconda #1
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Anybody advocating a switch to Ubiquity should be fired.
Ubiquity, the Ubuntu installer, is a very basic installer. No LVM, no RAID, no disk encryption, nothing. The UI is decent, but in terms of features, it is awful.
The Alternate installer edition has support for LVM, RAID and disk encryption, but it is ncurses-based.
The suggestion should be for every distro to switch to Anaconda, which is the best installer you are going to find on any desktop distribution.
Ubiquity, the Ubuntu installer, is a very basic installer. No LVM, no RAID, no disk encryption, nothing. The UI is decent, but in terms of features, it is awful.
The Alternate installer edition has support for LVM, RAID and disk encryption, but it is ncurses-based.
The suggestion should be for every distro to switch to Anaconda, which is the best installer you are going to find on any desktop distribution.
Actually, the rpm vs deb issue shouldn't really be a barrier for using Ubiquity, unless its code is much worse than Anaconda: Sabayon uses pre-compiled Gentoo packages unique to that one distribution, and uses Anaconda just fine (and with grub2 no less, that Anaconda on Fedora doesn't).
That said, I also see no reason to prefer Ubiquity over Anaconda. Anaconda is a nice, polished installer itself (I actually rather like its current UI), and as finid said, can do more than Ubiquity can. The only part of Ubiquity I'd port over is the use of NTP to guess timezone and keyboard layout; that's a nice touch.
BTW, the reason that the Ubuntu's alternate installer is decent is that it's actually just Debian's installer ported over to Ubuntu. In Debian proper, it also has a GTK+ mode that can be used instead of ncurses, and is functionally identical. I have also had less issues net-installing with the Debian installer than with Fedora's (beta builds, granted, but then compared against Debian Testing, not Stable). So there are inspirations to look to there, too. Still not worth replacing Anaconda with it, but I actually respect D-I much more than Ubiquity.
That said, I also see no reason to prefer Ubiquity over Anaconda. Anaconda is a nice, polished installer itself (I actually rather like its current UI), and as finid said, can do more than Ubiquity can. The only part of Ubiquity I'd port over is the use of NTP to guess timezone and keyboard layout; that's a nice touch.
BTW, the reason that the Ubuntu's alternate installer is decent is that it's actually just Debian's installer ported over to Ubuntu. In Debian proper, it also has a GTK+ mode that can be used instead of ncurses, and is functionally identical. I have also had less issues net-installing with the Debian installer than with Fedora's (beta builds, granted, but then compared against Debian Testing, not Stable). So there are inspirations to look to there, too. Still not worth replacing Anaconda with it, but I actually respect D-I much more than Ubiquity.
I don't think Anaconda is Ugly and Unusable as it seems beautiful and sensical to me. I love it. Though judging by the theme of your blog I'm not too worried that many others would share your opinion.
Crashy and buggy for sure! Just keep hacking at those bugs (or remove the root causes - whatever floats your boat).
Crashy and buggy for sure! Just keep hacking at those bugs (or remove the root causes - whatever floats your boat).
Great wrap-up and very interesting to hear where anaconda is heading! Putting everything into initrd sounds sane for me and we all wanted to get rid of install.img for a long way anyway - we just never dared to ask :) Oh, about that only downside - I'll make sure to literally bug you about any problem I see with installation over TFTP/PXE!
btw, would that also break updates.img support or does that work with initrd.img too?
btw, would that also break updates.img support or does that work with initrd.img too?
> Great wrap-up and very interesting to hear where anaconda is heading! Putting everything into initrd sounds sane for me and we all wanted to get rid of install.img for a long way anyway - we just never dared to ask :) Oh, about that only downside - I'll make sure to literally bug you about any problem I see with installation over TFTP/PXE!
Yeah, just file a bug about it. I see all of them anyway.
> btw, would that also break updates.img support or does that work with initrd.img too?
updates= will still work. That's fetched and unpacked by the loader so when anaconda runs, the $PYTHONPATH is set up correctly. No change there. Now if I try to kill the loader, I might have to think up something clever to make the updates mechanism work. That's one of those things I am absolutely not getting rid of.
Yeah, just file a bug about it. I see all of them anyway.
> btw, would that also break updates.img support or does that work with initrd.img too?
updates= will still work. That's fetched and unpacked by the loader so when anaconda runs, the $PYTHONPATH is set up correctly. No change there. Now if I try to kill the loader, I might have to think up something clever to make the updates mechanism work. That's one of those things I am absolutely not getting rid of.
> Ubiquity, the Ubuntu installer, is a very basic installer. No LVM, no RAID, no disk encryption, nothing.
Wrong place to ask but do you mean that a Ubuntu user cannot encrypt laptop's hard drive when installing? Isn't laptop disk encryption a requirement in many corporations?
Wrong place to ask but do you mean that a Ubuntu user cannot encrypt laptop's hard drive when installing? Isn't laptop disk encryption a requirement in many corporations?
It appears that it does not. Nor does the installer on the alternative install media. At best it leaves /boot unencrypted.
http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-1463229.html
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/22860/
http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-1463229.html
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/22860/
I agree anaconda is more versatile than Ubuquity (does Ubuquity support full automated installations yet? kickstart it's important, IMHO).
Of course the desktop user doesn't care about all this power, they just want it to look good (relative) and easy (again, quite relative). Ubuquity works, obviously; but I agree it's a bad idea to use it in Fedora.
In the other hand, may be there's something to learn from Ubuquity. I don't know, perhaps a 'newbie' mode for the less than average desktop user.
Of course the desktop user doesn't care about all this power, they just want it to look good (relative) and easy (again, quite relative). Ubuquity works, obviously; but I agree it's a bad idea to use it in Fedora.
In the other hand, may be there's something to learn from Ubuquity. I don't know, perhaps a 'newbie' mode for the less than average desktop user.
> I agree anaconda is more versatile than Ubuquity (does Ubuquity support full automated installations yet? kickstart it's important, IMHO).
It has some rudimentary kickstart support (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KickstartCompatibility) - which is nice to see, I just hope they're using pykickstart). I believe there's also a different way to script a Debian install, which you can likely do with Ubuntu as well.
> In the other hand, may be there's something to learn from Ubuquity. I don't know, perhaps a 'newbie' mode for the less than average desktop user.
Finding the balance there is the thing I'm hoping we'll get out of doing the user interface review I linked to somewhere in all that text. It's often difficult to do this because people like to think they are experts or have custom needs, or basically just don't want miss out on whatever we're hiding behind that "Advanced" button.
It has some rudimentary kickstart support (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/KickstartCompatibility) - which is nice to see, I just hope they're using pykickstart). I believe there's also a different way to script a Debian install, which you can likely do with Ubuntu as well.
> In the other hand, may be there's something to learn from Ubuquity. I don't know, perhaps a 'newbie' mode for the less than average desktop user.
Finding the balance there is the thing I'm hoping we'll get out of doing the user interface review I linked to somewhere in all that text. It's often difficult to do this because people like to think they are experts or have custom needs, or basically just don't want miss out on whatever we're hiding behind that "Advanced" button.
About the translations, maybe you can split the translations to two parts: what is needed before accessing the repo (local/remote) which is included in initrd.img, and what will be needed later which will be fetched from the repo.
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